Ep 76: Body Image and Kids with Toni Davis

In this episode of the Body Grievers Club, Bri is joined by Toni Davis, an LPC and registered play therapist supervisor from Texas. Together, they discuss how play therapy can help children process emotions and develop a healthy body image. Toni emphasizes how important it is to involve parents in the therapeutic process and offers insights into talking about body image issues. They suggest various books and strategies for parents to teach body positivity and self-acceptance in children. The episode also covers the challenges clinicians face, including dealing with parents resistant to anti-fatness and how to address children's comments on body size.

TIMESTAMPS
01:19 Body Image and Play Therapy
05:00 Addressing Food Rules and Fat Phobia
07:24 The Impact of Body Image on Children
16:28 Parental Influence on Body Image
20:32 Attachment Styles and Eating Disorders
24:12 Body Positive Books for Kids
26:25 Books for Parents on Body Positivity
32:13 Addressing Anti-Fatness in Parenting
37:35 Developing a Child's Sense of Self
44:51 Handling Comments on Body Size

Books Referenced:
Fearing the Black Body by Sabrina Strings
The Body Image Sourcebook by Carolyn Koston

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Want more of Toni?
Website: https://www.sapphirecovecounseling.com/

TRANSCRIPT:

Bri: Welcome to the Body Grievers Club. Hi friend, I am your host, Bri Campos, from Body Image with Bri. I am a fat positive body image coach, educator, and trained mental health counselor. My goal is to help you stop hating your body and learn how to move through unavoidable body grief.

Bri: This will not be your average body image advice. No affirmations, no fluff, no filter. I am prepared to say the quiet parts out loud. And no matter how overwhelming or hopeless your body image feels, you belong here.

Bri: Welcome back to another episode of the Body Grievers Club. I am so excited to bring you today’s guest. This is my friend, my colleague, and also a client of mine in my business collective. I am so excited that she is here, and I am going to let her introduce herself. Tony, tell everybody who you are.

Tony: Hi Body Grievers. I am Tony Davis. I am an LPC in Texas. I predominantly see kids and work with body image, and with kids I handle almost anything diagnosis wise. I am trained as and hold the credential of a registered play therapist supervisor. I am an LPC supervisor and a registered play therapist supervisor.

Bri: Amazing. I know what a play therapist is, but for folks listening who are like what is a play therapist, can you explain what you do?

Tony: A play therapist is someone who uses play therapy within counseling. It is more than bringing toys into a room and letting kids play. I look at the themes in their play, the emotions that are coming up, how they are processing, and I support that process. We use play and expressive arts to give them a way to express in a language they understand, because kids do not process and reason like adults do. For adults, play can help them tap into their inner child and process on a deeper level than talk therapy alone.

Bri: For those listening who may not know, before I was Body Image with Bri, I did community mental health care and worked with kids between the ages of four and nineteen. Play was a big part of how I got kids to talk and process. Sometimes I did not even ask them to talk about the play, I just let the experience unfold. I will say, when I was learning about play therapy in school, I was resistant to it. I did not understand what I was supposed to do. What do you make of that, play therapist?

Tony: I tell parents that younger kids often have no idea what is going on in counseling because they think they are just playing. And they are playing, but I know what is going on. Some kids resist. They want to come in and talk, or they only touch toys like fidgets or sand for sensory regulation. They will say they are too old for play, or they see it as babyish. It is not something they are used to doing, so there is resistance. Even kids who say they do not know what to do, I will say you are six, you play, and they will ask for a tablet or TV. I tell them that is not the focus here, because we would not be able to stay present.

Bri: Tell me a little about body image and play therapy when working with kids.

Tony: Body image shows up with every kid, whether or not it is the presenting concern. Kids with special needs may not be able to access some toys in the same way. Kids from different cultures look for themselves in the playroom. I also have kids who walk to the kitchen set and start sorting foods into good foods and bad foods. I will ask where we learned that. One child sorted out fruit and said fruit has sugar and sugar is bad. That is a four year old. So we explore.

Bri: What do you do when a kid has already learned all these food rules? We all know where they learned them. How do you navigate that?

Tony: I explore what makes a food bad. Is it expired, are you allergic, or is it simply food that nourishes your body. Then I explore with the parent. What is the dynamic at home. Are certain things allowed. Is it restrictive. Are foods labeled good or bad. What is the reason something is called good or bad. Is there judgment attached to that. Often the rule is sugar makes you fat. Thank you for the underlying fat phobia. Then we work on how to address it and where the parent stands in supporting a more flexible approach, because otherwise it can develop into disordered eating. In elementary school it might be comments, but by middle and high school it can escalate. It does not get better if it is not addressed.

Bri: So your role is preventative, trying to interrupt eating disorder behavior that can strengthen over time.

Tony: Yes. There is a belief that bodies must not change, and fear that if a child is not small they will be limited. I ask what makes that limiting. There can be limitations in any body, but that does not mean someone is unhealthy or incapable of a fulfilling life.

Bri: For folks listening who might think they are kids, how impactful can body image be at that age, there is research showing the impact is real. There was a study on ten year old girls who reported being more afraid of being fat than losing both parents, getting cancer, or war.

Tony: I believe NEDA has a statistic that by age four kids have concepts and values about bodies. Many four to six year olds fear becoming fat, and then they begin monitoring their eating. When I hear that at age four I think you cannot even write your name clearly, yet you already fear fatness. In the playroom you see why this matters. Even if it does not progress to a clinical eating disorder, it can create disordered eating and a deeply unhealthy relationship with the body, a disconnect that sounds like I do not even like this thing I am living in. You might change what the body looks like, but it is still your body.

Bri: And it is also the development of anti fatness. I remember in grad school when I was nannying, the little boy I watched could not have been more than eight. I went to sit on the couch with him and he said he did not want to snuggle with me because I was fat. I knew his mom would be upset, so I said we are good, we will explore this. I asked what it means that I am fat. He said it would not be comfortable to snuggle with me. I said I think it might be the opposite, you are very thin and bony, it might be less comfortable for me to snuggle with you. I tried to understand where he learned it. He said kids at school were calling others fat. Months later at the park a friend told me I was really fat. The boy I nannied stood up for me and said that was not nice, and that it is like eye color, you would not insult that. Sensitivity training worked. If nobody has that conversation, body size bias shapes their worldview.

Tony: I see both ends of the spectrum. Kids say I am the smallest in class and I get picked on. Or they are small for football and feel less capable. I reframe to focus on skills and strengths. We do not control our growth. You cannot put miracle grow on yourself. On the other side, I see kids who are the largest or tallest and they get pointed out as different. That consciousness of being an outsider can show up at ages where developmentally you would not expect a need for social acceptance yet.

Bri: For providers who identify body image issues in kids, what do you recommend.

Tony: Bring in parents when possible. There are 168 hours in a week. A child might see me for one hour. That one hour needs support across the rest of the week. Give parents tools to support instead of shaming. Help kids with psychoeducation. Use books, toys, and representation to show all kinds of bodies. Connect to their interests. If they love football, there are players of many sizes. If they love dance, there are many kinds of dancers. If they love to read, their worth is not their body. Their worth is not about making their body more palatable while sacrificing themselves.

Bri: A lot of kids are not at an age where they can reason about worth and value, but as adults we see how this becomes a young wounded part saying I am not worthy. The logical brain knows better, yet the emotional part wins. Do you see many kids with eating disorders.

Tony: I see some. I have had several with ARFID, and a couple with anorexia, fewer with bulimia.

Bri: I had a lot of experience with kids with disordered eating. Some had excessive bingeing that was so rooted in trauma I was not qualified to treat. I referred to higher levels of care. In community mental health, when I sensed disordered eating I would recommend bringing in a dietitian. Many families were low income, so finding free resources was hard. If a parent is listening who used to be very diet culture and they are worried about how their kid views bodies, what would you tell them.

Tony: We are going to mess up as humans. The important part is modeling repair. Own what you did. Acknowledge if you were dieting or shaming, or held fat phobic beliefs. Explain it on the child’s level. Society teaches that this is acceptable, and that is not true. You can walk it back, apologize, and say your intent was not harm. You want them to feel loved and accepted at all times at home.

Bri: I will add that even if you never said anything about bodies to your kid, if you said it about yourself they have seen it and heard it and are internalizing it. I have had kids with worse body dysmorphia because they observed a parent degrading their own body or shaming a sibling in a larger body.

Tony: Then the sibling who was not shamed asks if they are more acceptable. Parents also need to notice what they do in public. Do they make comments, avoid things, give looks, or make little nutrition jabs. Kids catch it. On attachment, I remember a Dan Siegel statistic that to create secure attachment you only need to meet needs about 30 percent of the time. The bar is low, yet secure attachment is not most common.

Bri: In the Eating Disorder Sourcebook by Carolyn Costin, she talks about attachment. Genetics loads the gun, environment pulls the trigger. Two kids in a household, one develops an eating disorder, one does not. A working theory is that a safe attachment and self efficacy are protective. Self efficacy is the ability to try and fail and be ok. That connects to attachment. So even if you get it right 30 percent of the time, and you take accountability for the other 70 percent, you can still support your child well.

Tony: Even parents who messed up can move forward. I tell parents the goal is to mess up your kids differently than how you were messed up. We are all going to therapy for something, choose your flavor. Kids might still be mad at you in therapy one day, but if we teach parents to hold discomfort without scapegoating and without avoidance, that meets a deep need. When kids are in chaos, our job is to be the calm. Do not join the chaos.

Bri: That is great advice for providers too. When a client spirals, we do not need to enter the spiral. We can have our feelings later. What was the quote.

Tony: When children are in chaos and overwhelmed, it is our job as the adults to be the calm in the storm instead of joining their chaos.

Bri: You have quoted a lot of books. Any you recommend for parents or kids.

Tony: For kids, Her Body Can by Katie Crenshaw and Ady Meschke. It is body positive for girls. Your Body is Awesome, Body Respect for older kids, Listening to My Body, I Am Enough by Grace Byers. Starfish for older kids. How to Be Comfortable in Your Own Feathers by Julia Cook is the first one I found for little ones. It goes into a bird developing an eating disorder, getting help, and learning to take care of itself. For parents, Sonya Renee Taylor’s The Body Is Not an Apology. Aubrey Gordon’s books, like What We Don’t Talk About When We Talk About Fat and You Just Need to Lose Weight and 19 Other Myths About Fat People. For health myths, Food is Not Medicine by Joshua Wolrich. Depending on where parents want to begin, I might suggest articles from ASDAH, NAAFA, Body Trust by Hilary Kinavey and Dana Sturtevant, Body Respect by Lindo Bacon and Lucy Aphramor, Anti Diet by Christy Harrison, and Beauty Redefined. Meet yourself where you are. Step into the shallow end and build from there.

Bri: I like that analogy. For folks new to body liberation, it can feel overwhelming. You are allowed to not know a lot. Start where you can find grip and build. I am currently reading Belly of the Beast by Da’Shaun Harrison. It is an academic read, not background noise, and brilliant. The roots of racism and anti fatness are deeply connected. Highly recommend.

Bri: If you sense a parent is contributing to anti fatness and they are not open to hearing it, what do you do.

Tony: The resistance is often they have to eat healthy. I ask them to define healthy. Many people have normal labs and are not in the so called normal weight range. BMI is racist, sexist, and flawed. I engage their beliefs. I break it apart so they can support their child differently. You are bringing your child, so I need to challenge you enough without losing your buy in. You want your child to be happy. Happy is a feeling, not a permanent state. My job is to help you support your kid, not to reinforce a harmful value system.

Bri: I used to share statistics with parents. Every 52 minutes someone dies as a direct result of an eating disorder. Less than six percent of people with an eating disorder are considered medically underweight. About 30 million Americans suffer from an eating disorder. If it starts with kids as young as ten, we can play a direct role in building a healthy relationship with food and body. We also live in a society that talks about a war on obesity.

Tony: It is a war on children. No one goes up to adults with a plate diagram, but we do it to kids in schools. Parents fear doctors if their kids are in larger bodies. Values matter here. Advocate for your kid like you would for ADHD accommodations. Advocate with doctors. Your definition of health is not the only definition. You advocate everywhere until they can do it, and they learn to do it by watching you. The biggest factor in healing after trauma is the reaction of the first person they disclose to. The support matters more than anything. Be that support.

Bri: Developmentally, when do kids start forming a sense of self or self esteem.

Tony: Younger than we want to admit. I see it as early as two and three. Kids say I cannot do this, I am bad at everything. They do not have the logic to reason yet. They are building a concept of self, deciding if they are good or bad. If a parent is very critical, a child will say I always mess up. It can also come from school or daycare. I saw a five year old whose daycare provider told them they were always bad. By six the child believed they could not do anything right and should hurt themselves. The parents did not endorse it and did not realize it was happening until months in. So much influences kids beyond our control.

Tony: Even the grocery store. Magazines at three foot level say how I lost ten pounds and am so happy. That is a child’s eye line. These messages are in front of them whether you consent or not.

Bri: A cool experiment for parents would be to show your kid a picture of a fat person and ask what they think. You can assess what they have already absorbed and then bridge a conversation. Where did you learn that. Where did this expectation come from. Teach values of body diversity early.

Bri: Listener question. My sister has chosen not to raise her children in a fat positive household. They are old enough to notice body size differences. As the fat auntie, how can I respond to their inevitable questions without disrespecting my sister’s parenting choices.

Tony: First define for yourself what disrespecting her choices means. Kids will learn things regardless. They will be exposed to other beliefs. You can offer small challenges to the system. Praise bodies that are not the culturally preferred bodies when you are with them. Normalize and affirm. Be the glitch in the matrix. Show them that you love yourself and them in your body. That challenges the idea that fatness is the worst thing. Small breadcrumbs add up.

Tony: If a child says Miss Tony, you are fat, I say yes, I am. That is a descriptor. I am also strong, smart, kind. There are many ways to describe me. There are many ways to describe bodies. It is like kids who say they are not good at math. There are other things you are good at. Not everyone needs to be a mathematician, not everyone needs to be a counselor. We can accept all parts of us.

Bri: If I had one fat positive role model growing up, someone in a larger body who was not trying to change their body and did not think it was wrong, that could have shifted my self efficacy. It is like attachment. If there is one person who is fully ok, that matters. My last question. How do you approach a client or kid who comments on your body size. Would you do the same as you described.

Tony: Yes. I have had kids and parents comment. Someone asked if I was pregnant and I said no, I am fat, that is where I carry my weight. A stranger at a store argued with me about being pregnant. People make assumptions. With kids or in public, I own it. I do not make it a shame piece. If you line me up, I am lining up on the fat side. That is not an insult. It is a descriptor.

Bri: Whether you are a provider or someone around kids, anticipate that a kid will say it. There is no filter. They do not mean it cruelly, they do not understand it is cruel. Brace for it, prepare for it, and we can deal with your feelings later. In that moment, do not take it personally. Follow up with body diversity education. One reason I love Encanto is that Disney promoted Isabela, yet everyone loved Luisa. When kids see my figures, they say Isabela is mean and Luisa is strong and kind. Kids notice different bodies and strengths.

Tony: Yes, seeing all different bodies in one space matters. If adults struggle with body diversity, no wonder kids do.

Bri: Tony, I could talk to you all day. For folks listening, tell them how they can work with you. Share your practice and supervision opportunities.

Tony: My practice is Sapphire Cove Counseling Services. In Texas I offer in person and virtual counseling. That is the only state I am licensed in. I provide supervision to Texas LPC associates and play therapy supervision internationally because it is an international credential. My website is sapphirecovecounseling.com. If you want to reach out for trainings, coaching, or other opportunities, I am happy to help.

Bri: We will put that in the show notes. Sometimes sitting with someone to get clarity on what to do with your kid, your practice, or yourself makes all the difference. We will include all of that. Tony, thank you so much for being with us today. I appreciate it.

Tony: Thank you so much for having me.